Local-Only RTK Data

Its my understanding that the RTK data generated at the roof-mounted datacenter first gets uploaded to the yarbo cloud ntrip service. After that, it bounces back down to the DC and then over the HALO link to the rover. This happens even if wifi and cellular are disabled on the rover.

Feature request:

  • Can the NTRIP/RTK data be sent DIRECTLY from the DC to the Rover
    • This could be set up to only directly send if cellular and wifi are disabled, no chance of backhaul changes.
  • For those that DO keep cellular turned on, Perhaps data mirror the RTK data to the cloud service so if its needed/halo cuts out, the rover can pull from the cloud service then. (Or only mirror once halo signal gets below x threshold)

Some reasons:

  • Proxying the data to the cloud services makes sense for seamless handoff if the rover moves to cellular from Halo. Some of us don’t need that. This is just wasted bandwidth
  • Some folks are heavily bandwidth constrained (Rural, Geostationary satellite internet)
  • Reduces the yarbo fleet reliance on a real-time service that can’t afford much downtime. Right now, if the NTRIP services are offline, which they have been in the last couple weeks, there is no workaround for users to work remotely.
  • Because of ^ reasons, reduced infrastructure costs for Yarbo, the company.
  • Self-reliance/Self-hosted. I realize Yarbo is very connected. But a big part of the reason for buying the yarbo for some of us is to bring things ā€˜in-house’ instead of hiring out a lawncare service. Being so at-mercy for a cloud service goes against that
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You can have WiFi and Cell off in the rover and pull the Ethernet connection from the Data Center (leaving the PoE injector for power only), and the system will still work. It’s a way to test for a dodgy network, suggested to me by Co-founder Ken – didn’t know it’d work without Internet. I guess everything for daily tasks is stored locally and locally done over HaLow.

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Interesting! So I’m not home at the moment but the rover is running a mission that I can see over CCTV. I blocked all network traffic from the yarbo devices on the network to the internet and it looks like the rover came to a stop within about 50ft. BUT! It did start back up and now its continuing. All data in the app is stale (expected).

Ahh, sneeky sneeky, cellular is on somehow. So RTK is Status:4 and DC is Connection:3 . Super interesting because cellular is definitely disabled in the mobile app and it now says its used 84mb of data.

Alrighty, maybe something is sneaking through the mac-based firewall. Disabling the network port and leaving POE up. Rover paused… and now its continuing on again. App shows 4G connection. I confess, I’m stumped. If cellular really is disabled, I’m not quite sure how its getting the traffic out.

I turned the port back on, removed the firewall rules and the icon changed from 4G back to the 3 concentric arcs (Halo).

Well that was an interesting experiment. So maybe we can’t actually turn off cellular? Thats wild. It looks like it successfully failed over to public NTRIP via cellular (ignoring the fact that its disabled) and didn’t even need(??) the RTK data from the local DC..? Less the rover was being fed from the DC via Halo directly and using cellular just as telemetry backhaul for the app updates..?

I’m not sure. @Yarbo can you comment on whats going on? How am I getting status reports from the yarbo when the DC is unplugged/powered down, wifi is off and cellular is off

  • No firewall, No ports down: Connection: 2 ā€œNTRIPā€
  • Disabling the switch port puts the yarbo into Connection: 3 ā€œLocal Halowā€
  • Firewall rule blocking the DC puts the yarbo into Connection: 3 ā€œLocal Halowā€
  • Powering the DC Down: Status: 2 Halow Connection: False - Yarbo pauses, waiting for gps signal to recover
  • Powering DC back up, ports still off: Status: 4 Connection - Yarbo recovers
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The switch from NTRIP to Local HaLow takes about 60 seconds. It’s odd that cellular isn’t truly disabled because it does show a different status in the diagnostics when it’s disabled vs not.

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Yeah. The status page showed cellular is offline as did the settings page. But somehow was still getting info from the rover when the DC was powered down. Maybe I’m just missing something obvious

Bluetooth would be the only other way. The rover has some excellent range.

Damn good range, lol. I’m ~45mi away!

Maybe not that good! :joy:. You don’t have the over on WiFi? Please don’t if you do. It causes issues.

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Wifi is not enabled nor has it ever been. I did hear enough bad things about that so I’ve never enabled

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Yeah mine has had lots of issues after enabling wifi… have we ever heard any more on this?

Last official word I heard from the lead product manager was not to use it. That was in one of the user tech forums many months ago.

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The problem with this is that you’re hitting a mosquito with a sledgehammer. Killing all access to Yarbo to fix a faulty NTRIP setup (cloud dependent NTRIP should not be the default) isn’t a solution. Its fine for troubleshooting, but assuming all users should be using a cloud NTRIP service without allowing users to change that was a bad call since day 1. Its the number one thing that grinds my nerves about Yarbo because there are beautiful days when Yarbo take 2x as long to cut an area because its constantly dealing with cloud NTRIP reliability nonsense.

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You make some great points if that’s what the problem is, and they’re are other companies with better products in the line. I see both sides. Is it just low cost solutions? Maybe a better product to make it work better on Yarbo? Let’s break it down, for anyone that may not understand.
***Network Transport of RTCM via internet Protocol (NTRIP) is a widely adopted GNSS (Global Navigation Satellite System) technology which improves the delivery of GNSS corrections. NTRIP facilitates the seamless delivery of real-time correction data over the internet. This protocol underpins the delivery of centimeter-level accuracy, critical for industries like automotive, GIS, outdoor robots, and logistics.

What is NTRIP?

Network Transport of RTCM via Internet Protocol (NTRIP) is a widely used GNSS technology for delivering real-time corrections over the internet.

Why NTRIP Matters

Precision:** Helps improve GNSS accuracy from meters to centimeters.
Convenience:** Eliminates line-of-sight requirements and maintenance of base stations.
Scalability:** Supports multiple users and devices simultaneously.
How NTRIP Works

GNSS base stations collect raw satellite data.
Corrections are computed at the base station (traditional RTK) or in the cloud.
Corrections are streamed via an NTRIP caster to rovers using the internet.
Rovers apply corrections for precise positioning.

Advantages of NTRIP

Global Coverage:** Internet-based delivery works anywhere with connectivity.
Reduced Interference:** Internet transmission avoids common issues with radio signals.
Cost Efficiency:** Reduces hardware and maintenance expenses.

The Role of NTRIP in GNSS Corrections

NTRIP bridges the gap between GNSS base stations and receivers (often called a rover) by enabling the transfer of correction data. It acts as a data stream, delivering Differential GNSS (DGNSS) and Real-Time Kinematic (RTK) correction signals which are critical for achieving sub-meter to centimeter-level accuracy, making the protocol indispensable for precise positioning.

RTK corrections enhance GNSS data to provide exceptional accuracy. Standard GNSS systems, like GPS, offer location data that is accurate within meters. However, errors introduced by atmospheric interference, satellite orbit inconsistencies, and timing issues can degrade this accuracy. Read our GNSS primer to learn more about the various forms of GNSS corrections.

Here’s how NTRIP works:

1. Raw GNSS Data Collection: Continuously Operating Reference Stations (CORS), which are strategically placed and have precise known coordinates, observe and collect raw signals from GNSS constellations like GPS, Galileo, and BeiDou.

2. Correction Computation: In Traditional RTK, local base stations use these observations to compute corrections. In the case of a cloud based system, such as Skylark, stations do not compute corrections themselves; they transmit raw observations to the cloud which performs the computation.

3. NTRIP Transmission: A central server called NTRIP caster streams the corrections from base stations to the receiver through the internet. This ensures that correction data is delivered quickly and reliably, enabling real-time, high-accuracy geolocation.

4. Receiver Position Correction: The rover uses the data to correct its position.
By eliminating the need to manage remote connections to each base station, NTRIP offers a cost-effective and convenient solution for delivering real-time GNSS correction data. Companies looking to implement the highest level of precision in their location-based systems should carefully evaluate their NTRIP service provider to ensure the best possible results.

What are the Advantages of NTRIP over Traditional Systems?

NTRIP provides several advantages over traditional correction delivery methods, such as:

Extended Coverage: Unlike radio systems that are constrained by line-of-sight limitations, NTRIP can deliver corrections globally, as long as an internet connection is available.

Reduced Interference: Internet-based communication is far less susceptible to signal interference compared to radio frequencies.

Cost-Effectiveness: By eliminating the need for companies to own and deploy their own specialized hardware, NTRIP reduces setup and maintenance costs for users.

Scalability: NTRIP systems can support multiple users simultaneously, enabling broader adoption across industries.

These benefits make NTRIP a reliable and versatile choice for delivering high-precision GNSS corrections.

What are the Challenges and Considerations When Using NTRIP?

While NTRIP offers numerous advantages, there are some challenges to consider:

Dependence on Internet Connectivity: NTRIP requires a stable internet connection, which may be a limitation in remote areas with poor network coverage.

Hardware Compatibility: NTRIP requires compatible GNSS receivers and software that can act as an NTRIP client. Not all devices support the required RTCM formats or mount point configurations, potentially limiting its use.

Subscription Costs: Accessing NTRIP services often requires a subscription, which may not be feasible for all users.

NTRIP’s Impact and Emerging Alternatives

Developed under the guidance of the Radio Technical Commission for Maritime Services (RTCM) in 2004 and continuously refined since then, NTRIP has set the benchmark for delivering GNSS corrections. Its reliability and ease of integration make it the preferred protocol for applications demanding highly accurate real-time positioning.

As technology evolves, alternatives like MQTT (Message Queuing Telemetry Transport) are being explored for certain use cases. These lightweight protocols offer flexibility for real-time data transmission in emerging applications, although they are yet to match NTRIP’s widespread adoption in precision positioning.
I guess we will see. I hope things get better. I’ve talked to many doing property plats in my area. They’re are better things, very $$$. But better.

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Lengthy response about NTRIP as a protocol, but that’s not what I’m getting at. The problem is them using a cloud-hosted NTRIP server instead of having the local NTRIP server on the DC as the PRIMARY source of RTK data instead or going with a cloud-first solution. It was a recipe that prioritized the edge cases of having a unit go out of Halow range and switching over to cellular over the more common case of having internet connectivity instability impacting the availability of timely correction data delivery.

That seems to be one issue I’m having. ā€œcommon case of having internet connectivity instability impacting the availability of timely correction data delivery.ā€ Hoping to get it resolved. They’ve made a remote adjustment. Once I can map some, I’ll know more hopefully. It was listed as rare. And they want to do a Teams Meeting, I’m guessing.

You’re not alone… Everything is a bandaid until they actually fix the root cause, which is the design flaw of making this a cloud-first approach. It should be local-first by default and user switchable for those very few users that need seamless data roaming between Halow and cellular to cover some distant stretch of the ā€œback 40ā€ that is outside Halow range.

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So if my yarbo is always in local ntrip status is that a good thing or working properly? Do I need the data center even connected to the Internet if it’s just staying in local mode?

It is normal for it to fluctuate between status 2 and 3. If it’s solid 3 then you have an uplink problem. It’s working in offline mode. The core can only be controlled via Bluetooth or cellular this way. Or alternatively WiFi, which I don’t recommend. Hit refresh a few times and if it’s flipping between 2 and 3 you are good. If not, check your cable and router and make sure it has a link light and everything is working.

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